The Avengers: Infinity War Discussion (Contains SPOILERS)

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  • Adam Whipple
    Hutchmate
    @adamwhipple

    Hey everyone, here’s where we’re going to get into this movie. As the title of this thread suggests, the following discussions contain spoilers. Consider yourself advised.

    Now let’s dig in.

    ****************

    Some basic questions I have:

    1. In accordance with the comics, are we going to have a billion resurrections (not Christ/glorified body resurrections, just Lazarus have-to-die-again resurrections), and so what if we are?

    2. What is being said, as far as social commentary, by having a nearly all-powerful villain motivated by a potentially righteous idea?

    3. Is this the most powerful villain the MCU can contain, especially in regards to Scarlet Witch and Vision having their powers significantly diminished in the films? Do we accept these powerful characters in comics/graphic novels but reject them in films? Why or why not?

     


    Pete Peterson
    Hutchmaster Prime
    @pete

    Of course they’ll all be back, though I do expect the two Asgardians killed in the first 10 minutes to stay dead. I get that some folks feel like the obviousness of the coming un-rapture cheapens the story, but it doesn’t bother me a bit because this is what comics have been doing for 50 years.

    And I do find myself wondering where on earth the MCU can go after a villain as effective as Thanos. Dark Phoenix is forthcoming, but I expect that to suck. Can we get some Galactus? How would that not be ridiculous?

    ---Hutchmaster Prime, wielder of great and terrible cheeses


    Pete Peterson
    Hutchmaster Prime
    @pete

    test

    ---Hutchmaster Prime, wielder of great and terrible cheeses

    I’m intrigued to see who resurrects (some are obvious–I think), but I agree with Pete that there are “real” deaths and “rapture” deaths. I don’t think the real deaths will be overturned. My question then is: what about Gamora? Is her death real?

    Another topic for chewing on: My friend that I watched it with was disappointed that the movie didn’t contain more character development. I wasn’t really bothered by that, but her concern did make me think about it. How much did this movie just serve as an action/pivot point in the overall story? Not that you would, but if you came to this movie without any of the others, would the characters’ motivations make any sense? In a lot of ways, so much in this one pulled on old wounds/experiences for motivation and rather than paying off, just set up the pay-off to come later (a la, how will Stark respond to his final interactions with Dr. Strange and Spiderman?). I felt like there was some development for Vision and Scarlet Witch (albeit necessarily brief!). Were there other characters that we got to know better before they were thrown onto the barreling train of the story?

    A few people in my feed commented on the brilliance of the storytelling. Can anyone weigh in on specifics that led to that response? (I don’t know if I disagree or if I just haven’t thought it through.)

     


    Adam Whipple
    Hutchmate
    @adamwhipple

    I’m definitely okay with the storetelling, but I look at it through the lens of the multi-film series. In a way, the MCU has taken the HBO/Netflix model up a step (certainly in budget, if nothing else), by being serial at this level.

    I’m honestly having to work hard to feel the weight of the deaths, though, since I’m betting on a number of folks returning. Also, to me, taking this thing into multiverse or having endless multiple resurrections (a la comics) cheapens the lives and the sacrifice.


    Pete Peterson
    Hutchmaster Prime
    @pete

    I think character development has already been done in other films. The character development in this film is all about Thanos. He’s essentially the protagonist.

    ---Hutchmaster Prime, wielder of great and terrible cheeses

    @pete – That is a good way of putting it. I had already landed on your first sentence–I do feel like this is an en medias res story in many ways, pulling the characters that we go to know elsewhere through the crisis and then leaving us knowing the fall out is coming. But I hadn’t thought of Thanos as protagonist. I like that.

    Have you guys read the Christ and Pop Culture review? I love this:
    “This is a Good Friday movie, but only we know it’s Good Friday. The characters in the story don’t know the deaths are temporary, and experiencing the catharsis of death and grief with them lends as much weight to the deaths as anything else. But the end of Infinity War places the audience in an even stranger position because it leaves only us with hope.”

    https://christandpopculture.com/avengers-infinity-war-when-death-isnt-final/


    Mark Geil
    Hutchmate
    @markgeil

    @carrieg Thanks for sharing the review. I think they’re correct about leaving the audience with hope. I’m imagining the meeting when the “disintegrate list” was formed. Because it’s arbitrary, right? They could have chosen just enough heroes (Cap, a few Guardians, Fury, even Stark) to make us seriously consider that it might have been a real culling. Instead, they decided, deliberately I suppose, to off enough of them (Black Panther and Spider-Man, in particular) to lead us to a confident “They’ll be back” conclusion. Now the debate is more about how they’ll return than if they’ll return, which will make make it feel less cheap when it happens. And Pete’s right, if you know comics, you know that no death has ever been final.


    Matthew Cyr
    Hutchmate
    @matthewcyr

    I will commence my geek-outpouring by responding to Adam’s initial questions:

    1. Won’t dwell too much on this one, since it has been answered well in other responses and Jonny’s post. Death-reversal is a time-honored tradition in the comic book world. Although, I do expect there are more deaths coming in the next film, and that Cap and/or Stark were only saved to make a permanent sacrifice later – it could even be that this is what enables the others to “come back”. Substitution, whaaat? It’s interesting to think about the fact that while Captain America says “We don’t trade lives,” Jesus made that a time-honored tradition too.

    I’m afraid though that Pete’s right and the two Asgardians are gone for good – and I would trade quite a few “cherished heroes” to get one Loki back. And did Korg and Mik die just like that, unsung and unacknowledged, when Thanos attacked the ship in the beginning?? I was really looking forward to seeing those guys again.

    2. I hadn’t thought about that till you asked – not sure if you are thinking along the lines of the U.S. or it’s government being potentially the villain who thinks it’s a hero? I find it interesting that the liberal film industry has produced this story in which the potentially righteous idea driving the bad guy is essentially a progressive one. There have been voices in the environmentalist movement for decades saying that the human population needs to be radically reduced for the sake of nature. The more extreme almost seem to see humanity as a blight or plague on the earth to be eradicated. I have to wonder if the folks who made Avatar wouldn’t see Thanos as the true hero, and the Avengers as the misguided enemies of the good, preferring people over planets.

    But in the end I don’t know if the writers of Infinity War were or are very concerned about the social message of the film – I think they just saw, as Jimmy talked about, that having this sort of villain “hero” made for a much more interesting and thought-provoking story than the usual “I just want to rule everything!” or “I’ve been dealt a bad hand in life and I just hate everyone and now I’ma blow it all up!” species of mastermind.

    3. It’s true, it’s hard to contrive a more formidable nemesis than Thanos-plus-a-full complement-of-infinity-stones. But that might not matter so much, firstly because MCU doesn’t require each film to have a more powerful villain than the last – what matters is the threat level relative to that film’s hero(s). Ultron is a big enough problem to require the united Avengers, but when later films have lesser adversaries like Adrian Toomes with his vulture suit, it still works since he remains enough of a challenge for a relatively inexperienced young Spider-man. Thanos was dangerous enough to pit against just about every hero in the MCU to date, but the filmmakers won’t need to worry about topping him w unless they similarly bring the whole franchise together again in another film after the next Infinity War – which we surmise they won’t try again soon or often.

    Also, even if you can’t arrange for a villain more powerful than Thanos, you still can always up the ante by doing, again, what the comic books do – have the villains take a cue from the good guy playbook and team up, combining their strengths and abilities. It might be tricky to make it credible in an MCU film, but eventually I’d say we’ll see a Sinister Six or such like.

    And yeah, Galactus is maybe an option, but after him you really have little room to move up the scale for later showdowns.

    Before I end this I have to ask if something bothered anyone else, because it’s been nagging at me since I saw the film. In the first act Tony, Parker, and Strange are fighting with some of Thanos’s henchmen, and the action wraps up with Strange opening a portal to Antarctica or Hoth or wherever, and leaving the big alien dude stranded there. And as the mystic gate closes it cuts off the hand the guy was reaching out of it. Does that not beg the question, why Strange didn’t use the same trick to separate Thanos from the Gauntlet? When Mantis has him semi-unconscious and Spidey’s trying to yank it off Thanos’s hand, Strange could have portaled it back to Earth, leaving a one-handed Thanos with no infinity stones or even an immediate way off the barren planet. Maybe he could have dropped another little portal down over Thanos’s head and zwooshed his severed noggin into the sun or something, before taking everybody home to celebrate. Am I missing something, or was it really an awkward mistake to introduce the gate-severs-hand concept as a possibility in the earlier scene, creating an obvious but unused solution to the larger problem?

    @matthewcyr, I agree about the goof introducing the gate-severs-hand concept, but you must remember it is also Strange who sees the multitude of futures.  The problem is not just getting the stones away from Thanos, but away from everyone.  Just moving them somewhere else does not make them irretrievable, and does not nullify their power.  We must assume that the path chosen is the best one he saw, and I would expect that they’ll address this very issue in the next film.

    Until then we must wait with a year long “Good Friday”…

    @carrieg I’m confused about what will happen with Gamora as well; coming up with a resurrection for her that doesn’t feel contrived seems pretty difficult. Obviously we saw her in a younger form after her death, but it was unclear if that was in Thanos’s mind, or elsewhere (a popular theory being floated about is that the “raptured” are in the Soul Stone, and the background in that scene was roughly the color of said Infinity Stone but Gamora being inside it like the others if that is indeed the case seems odd to me). I’d honestly rather they left her dead, especially since Quill’s arc seems like it would be rather jerky if she was to return, what with his ruining a plan to kill Thanos (or at least what they thought was the plan, it seems that Strange had a different one) as a result of her death. Then again, perhaps her return is all part of what Strange saw, who knows…

    @thecarrotstick – It is also possible they will have the next Avengers movie solve everyone’s death except hers … and then they’ll have the next GotG movie about Peter finding a way to bring her back.  That would be appropriate considering his actions messing things up, and would also deepen that arc and his own character development.  We’ll see!

    @treskillard Ooh, I hadn’t thought of that, that would make sense. Guardians 1 and 2 are arguably my two favorite Marvel films, so I’m really interested to see what they’ll do with the characters in Avengers 4 and beyond.

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